303: How Can We Reclaim the Power of Play in Early Childhood Education? With Denita Dinger

In this episode of Child Care Conversations, Kate and Carrie chat with Denita Dinger, a passionate early childhood educator, about the magic of child-led play. They dive into the challenges of balancing structured themes with letting kids’ interests lead the way—even when programs have strict schedules. 

You’ll pick up practical tips for weaving children’s voices into daily routines, plus hear about resources like Denita’s upcoming course and a free “Top Five Play Opportunities” guide. It’s a warm, insightful conversation perfect for anyone wanting to champion play in early learning! 

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Transcript

Kate Young (00:47)
Welcome back. In today's episode, we are so excited to bring back more family child care experts, play experts, people who just love kids and love teachers and love you. And so today...

Carrie Casey (01:01)
Wait a second,

are we having two guests? I thought we were just having one. Do you have multiple personality disorder, Danita?

Denita Dinger (01:08)
I knew I have all of those things. She nailed it.

Kate Young (01:13)
Tell people that. So, Danita Dinger is joining us from way up north. I mean, how much snow do you have today?

Denita Dinger (01:21)
None at all. In fact, we had snow last Friday. Like not this past Friday, the last one we had about four inches of snow and this Friday, the most recent one, it was 78 degrees. So we're a hot mess up here in South Dakota right now.

Kate Young (01:34)
But you know,

so it's good to know that the Dakotas are a little confused, but we also did that in Texas about that same time period that Saturday that you just mentioned that you had four inches of snow. We had 98 degrees and then it was 32 two days later. So.

Denita Dinger (01:39)
Yes.

Yeah, isn't it

freezing? Yeah, yeah, so funny. Yeah, and side note, we laugh at you guys when you get snow because you don't know what to do about it.

Kate Young (01:53)
us.

Carrie Casey (01:58)
Well, we don't have any of the infrastructure and our walls are built with the plumbing in the exterior walls, which you guys wouldn't do, but here we do do that on purpose. Because flooding is much more of an issue and so we need to have those walls able to dry out. And so that's a bigger deal here. And we just don't have the infrastructure. The city of Austin, which is a metro of

Denita Dinger (02:12)
Yes.

⁓ sure. Yeah.

No.

Carrie Casey (02:27)
over a million people has two or three sand trucks. And that's it for over a million people. So we just don't have the tools. Kate knows how to drive in snow. She grew up in Ohio. think, yeah, I think that if it's snowing that that means I have to stay inside until it thaws.

Denita Dinger (02:33)
No. ⁓ yeah. ⁓

Yeah, well, yeah.

there you go, Kate, you've got it.

Yes, yes,

yes, definitely.

Kate Young (02:54)
let's not be crazy, most of the time it'll thaw in like, you know, six hours. So she's not, she's not boarded up in there for days. But anyway, Danita is here from the Dakotas and from South Dakota, and she is going to share with us a little bit about her passion. And she does come from a family child care ⁓ background, but that's not really where we're going to stay. And I want you to tell us all the fun things we're going to talk about.

Denita Dinger (02:59)
Yes.

my gosh, you guys, I am passionate about so much, but for today, I think we ought to stick with just the value of play and the fact that the current trend of this push down of academics on young children, absolutely, it needs to stop. And I will warn you, I'm very passionate on this topic. ⁓ Important things to know about me, a very important thing to know about me is I was the complete opposite educator that I am today.

And so I come from a background of with a elementary Ed degree with an early childhood education minor. ⁓ I opened my. What?

Kate Young (04:01)
just realized what's in the background. I

have that same phone.

Denita Dinger (04:06)
the Mickey Mouse one?

Kate Young (04:08)
Yes, I have a ridiculous number of Mickey Mouse things in my office.

Carrie Casey (04:08)
Yes.

Okay, not everybody is watching it on YouTube,

Denita Dinger (04:11)
you're a different mouse pin on two!

Carrie Casey (04:14)
guys. Some people are just listening.

Denita Dinger (04:15)
my gosh, here, I'll move aside so we can admire my Mickey collection.

Carrie Casey (04:19)
Okay, so we'll have to have

another time for you guys to geek out and be Mickey heads. I'm also a Disney person. I just don't have as much memorabilia as y'all do. Okay.

Kate Young (04:26)
told you that...

Denita Dinger (04:31)
Oh,

ladies, we got to get together again. Okay, so back to my history, because it's important for you to know that I came from a very teacher controlled background. My earlier as a family child care provider, I opened that program in 1998. It was called Giggles and Grins Family Child Care. I ran that from 98 to 2014, 98 to 2004.

Kate Young (04:34)
Okay, sorry.

Denita Dinger (04:58)
I was very much lesson plan oriented, very much stations, very much children played to get energy out so then they could come and listen to me. I was very much the one who wanted my parents bragging to other parents that their three-year-old was writing their name. I was very thematic. I couldn't even fathom how young children could possibly learn without my magnificent themes.

And then I heard Bev Boz in 2004 and Bev Boz crashed my world. ⁓ If you are not familiar with Bev Boz, stop right now, pause the podcast, get a piece of paper out, write down Bev Boz, circle it several times and after the podcast, please go look her up, do some research.

Carrie Casey (05:49)
We'll we'll put

a link to at least her author page in the show notes so that people can or maybe one of my favorite of her essays. She has one about biting that I think every toddler teacher should just be issued upon going into work in that room. Yeah.

Denita Dinger (05:55)
Perfect.

fantastic

YouTube videos too. She's still got some good YouTube stuff. has passed away, ⁓ but her message, her legacy lives on in naysayers like me. So I did not like her. I mean, I go as far as saying I hated her because I'm proud of my work with children and children deserve adults who are proud of their work with them. And I was very much proud of my work with children and Bev.

⁓ I mean, she said she couldn't have been more opposite of what I thought was best practice for children. And so I left shocked, ⁓ and unbeknown to me, I left completely changed because I could never, I never again went back to the way I was because I had this little teeny tiny darned Buz on my shoulder. And every time I would do something that she specifically at that

It was in Minneapolis. So at that keynote said I couldn't I couldn't continue I couldn't I couldn't tell children No, that doesn't fit into the theme. We're learning about this instead of this caterpillar you found for example And so anyway, it's important to know that because what I'm gonna suggest to you Today is probably gonna rock your world and you're gonna think well, there's no way she doesn't know what she's talking about there's lots of ways to do it right, Danita I hear that a lot of times from people and ⁓

To a point, yes, there are lots of ways, but you guys, young children need time to play. They need, in my opinion, if you are running, if you are operating a full day program, I am going to tell you children need at least five hours of that time to lead their own play, child led play, truly child led play in an environment that is emotionally healthy, meaning.

The environment meets the needs of all the children in that environment. The environment has open-ended opportunities ⁓ where children are free to attach their ideas. An environment where children are allowed to be mad, to be angry, to be frustrated, to be happy, to be joyful, to be all the emotions. Instead of adults who set up an environment

meant to avoid all the emotions, children need to be allowed.

Carrie Casey (08:31)
Wait, wait, you're telling

me as a teacher they shouldn't be saying, no baby, don't cry, it's okay, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry. That's not supposed to be the way it is?

Denita Dinger (08:42)
Right?

Nope. And I am telling you this coming from being that teacher who told children how they should feel. Janet Lansbury opened my eyes to better ways. So if you do not know Janet Lansbury, please write her down and I'm sure the ladies will put some links for Janet Lansbury as well. ⁓ The very vital importance that we need to just sit

those emotions. Sometimes we need to sit in those emotions with that child, but we certainly can allow them to feel. I used to be the type of educator who would distract a child from their emotions and get that, you know, their sad mom left. I have learned the much better way to handle that situation is to sit down with that child. Offer your lap to them if they would like to, but listen to them.

Let them tell you about their mom. Let them talk to you. ⁓ I have had more, some of the most beautiful conversations with children when I tell them, your mom is pretty awesome. I bet it is really hard when she leaves. You know, meet them where they are. And I used to be the, don't need to be sad. You don't need to do this. You don't need to do that. And who am I? Who am I to say that? You know, you need to go say you're sorry. What?

They might not be sorry. We're teaching children to lie. I found the much better way is model apologizing. And then I see it happening organically all around me by children. It's amazing.

Kate Young (10:08)
Yeah.

So I have a quick question for you because Carrie and I heard you give a keynote when we were in Mississippi and we were doing our thing and we were helping directors and owners run their business like a business. And we have left your powerful keynote and we went to do our workshop. And I sat there with some of them even going, because they were really sure they knew exactly how a classroom was supposed to be. They were research-based programs.

If you have a director or owner right now listening who is convinced they have the right thing, or maybe what you're saying is resonating, but they know it's going to be in conflict to perhaps the person who makes the final decision, what are some little things that a director or a teacher might be able to implement without stirring the pot?

So what might be a baby step that they could implement into their day that won't red flag everybody that things have massively changed? There we go.

Denita Dinger (11:25)
Okay, a great example that I've actually lived and helped a person through, I feel is a great starting step for any program. What I find, I do a lot of coaching in centers where I'll come in, I spend a couple days with the staff, with children present, I gather all the information I need to know to develop a... ⁓

⁓ training that will meet that staff where they are. And what I commonly see and my gosh, now I've lost my train of thought. What the heck? Where was I going with this? ⁓ what I commonly see, I got it, I got it, I got it. What I commonly see is a schedule of absolute ridiculousness. ⁓ I will see upwards 21 transitions on a schedule ⁓ in a pre-K classroom.

Kate Young (11:57)
Well, you're going to give me some tips. ⁓

Carrie Casey (11:58)
You

Denita Dinger (12:15)
Raise your hand adults out there, who of you would like to have 21 transitions in your day? That would mean 21 transitions between going to work, running errands, maybe sporting event at the end of the day. Okay, those would be like transitions I think I feel to an adult, maybe a couple meetings throw in there, 21. And so before I went, one center in particular, before I went and did anti-coaching at the center, months prior, that was my challenge to them.

see if you can get rid of some of those transitions. What I find is commonly in a schedule are things like circle time, large group time, art time, play time. ⁓ There was one schedule I got from a gal who just reached out to me as a family child care provider wanting some assistance and wanting to know how she could help the children in her program. Well, she had like 30 minutes down for art time.

and then a 30 minutes or so free play time. And then after that was, ⁓ I think, a large group time, or maybe it was writing. I can't remember exactly. But my recommendation to her was, why can't you clump art time into free play time? And also, can we please call that child led play instead of free play? Because the word play in its definition is free to the player. So.

There's lots of different types of play that we are, that's a whole nother podcast. But anyway, the child led play time. Why can't the art opportunity be offered during that time? And then if children would like to make that decision, because guess what? Not all children need to partake in the art activity of the day. There is art happening everywhere.

Carrie Casey (13:45)
Ha ha ha!

Denita Dinger (14:08)
Everywhere you look is art. Every creation a child makes with blocks. Even in dramatic play, there's creativity, there's art there. A child can do art without ever having to touch a paintbrush, paint, glue, a toilet paper,

Carrie Casey (14:25)
Also, how

many of the adults do we know who have to make art every day? My husband is a software engineer and he is a creative person, but he does not make art every day. He makes art on the days when he's doing it with his friends or when he feels moved to do it. I like to paint, but I do not paint every day.

Denita Dinger (14:42)
now.

Carrie Casey (14:55)
we should give that same dignity to the children. There are days when they want to beat the tar out of some Play-Doh and there's other days when they're not, you there might be another week before they need to use Play-Doh or clay because they're not needing it. Just like we don't need it every day. ⁓ Give the children some dignity.

Denita Dinger (15:16)
Excellent point.

Autonomy, and

dignity, the right to decide for themselves. ⁓ So that's my suggestion. That's my starting point for people is the schedule. Analyze your schedule and find out where you can combine things and clump them as child led play. But those opportunities are there.

Kate Young (15:32)
So.

So you're not necessarily

saying get rid of art. You're saying let art be, you know, an area they can do during their child led play time, which could also be their large group time, which can also be yada, yada, yada.

Denita Dinger (15:56)
Well,

and what happens is when adults combine things like that and when adults step back and really observe. And I have a course that's starting in January. It's called the Art of Empowering Children. And I go through the steps, all of this, how to build up to this point ⁓ of observation and how to document what you're seeing, understand what you're seeing in child-led play. You will notice...

my gosh, I don't have to lead large group activities because it happens organically in child led play. It might not be every single darn child, but it does not need to be every single darn child. It might be five or six children who have collaborated.

They've done the debating that comes in creating play. They've done all the hard work of creating some sort of game. They've made the rules. They've made it. And there you've got your large group activity is right there. ⁓ In that course, you're going to learn what to look for to know that children are doing pre-writing, which is before. So if you are calling, sit down and do a worksheet pre-writing, please stop that.

That is right.

Carrie Casey (17:12)
No, Scribble Scrabble is pre-writing and there are four or five stages. I can never remember. Every time I teach that class, I have to go back and look.

Denita Dinger (17:15)
Right?

Yeah. Oh, but Carrie, let's back up even more.

Climbing up a slide is pre-writing. Standing on a swing is pre-writing. Running is pre-writing. Anytime a child is upright and using their core. If you take your fingers and put them on your belly button and draw a line from your belly button, following on your body up to your shoulders and down your arm, that whole path.

Kate Young (17:26)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Carrie Casey (17:26)
Yep,

and that Play-Doh.

Denita Dinger (17:46)
Anytime a child's using anything along that path, front side of the body, back side of the body, they're getting ready for writing.

Carrie Casey (17:51)
Also, pinching

their friends is pre-writing. Pinching their friends is pre-writing.

Denita Dinger (17:54)
Yes, yes, a great

way to work on those grasping skills. Why are we stopping that? If there's a child that's figured out that tender spot under the arm, where if you pinch a person, there's no way they're going to argue with you. Why are we stopping that?

Carrie Casey (17:58)
You

Heh.

Kate Young (18:09)
I think

I love that. I'm scratching my head a little on that one, but it is pretty funny. So, but it is so valid. So we know that we've got folks, Danita, who are listening, who are coming from ⁓ programs that identify themselves as academic, pre-academic. And I know that for some of these programs, it's going to be really hard for them to change their language, their external language.

Denita Dinger (18:15)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kate Young (18:38)
But what are some things that they can do to change the internal language to meet the needs of the children? Because that's ultimately what everybody who's listening to this show is about, right? We all want what's best for the kids in our program. We are here to make sure that the managers, the owners, the directors also maintain their joy, which means that they have to know what resources are available for their teachers. So we've got all kinds of things happening.

What can they do to change the internal language?

Denita Dinger (19:11)
First of all, think people need to understand, you need to just back it up and realize what we are taking away from children when we put academics first. I am hearing more and more from elementary teachers who are experiencing absolutely outrageous behaviors. Children have no... ⁓

ability to self-regulate. They have, they literally have no control. What happens is when we are controlling children all the time, fixing their problems, telling them it's time to sit down at the table and do this and do that and making sure everything is perfect for them, there's no problems in their day, they don't develop the skills that they need, the life skills, the soft skills. There's all different ways. I mean, they are vital.

skills that are not getting developed. And now children are going into elementary school where classrooms are, class sizes are huge. are, there's so many problems ⁓ and so many reasons for these behaviors. But I believe one of the big ones is the fact that there is not enough play. ⁓ So to begin with, to help your staff understand that every time you do something for a child, every time you cut something for them, every time you

zip their coat for them every time anything you are teaching that child that you can do it better than they can, that they cannot do it for themselves, that they need somebody else. ⁓ So right there is a really, really big one to encourage staff to be aware of everything they are doing for a child and back up. Now I'm not saying don't help them, let them suffer. I'm saying how can you break that task into two?

How can you do teamwork instead of completely doing something for a child? ⁓ So you can start there with your staff to understand, ⁓ begin understanding the harm that they are actually doing when we do too much for children. When that schedule dictates every second of their day and they don't have the use of their brains to think for themselves. When we set up stations, ⁓ I have seen...

some of the most amazing open-ended opportunities. So I use the term opportunities for materials that we put in the environment for children. So I have seen the most beautiful open-ended materials be closed right up because of the way the teacher presented it to children and put so many rules and limitations on it and, you know, showed them.

what's going to happen. Say you have baking soda and vinegar out. I have seen educators who will come in and put those materials together. So now children see it, they don't get to own that discovery. So really think about what you are doing for children and do you have to do it? What can you let go of? Does that make sense? You guys helped me. Did I lose track of the question?

Kate Young (22:23)
No, think

Carrie Casey (22:23)
No,

I think.

Kate Young (22:24)
that was right on. Carrie, I know that this is a topic that also is near and dear to your heart. And I've heard you talk about it again for decades, for those of you who may not remember that Carrie and I actually have been around for, again, more than one decade. And so we really, we know that these are things that a lot of times our teachers attend workshops on. But one of the things that's often missing at a teacher workshop is

Carrie Casey (22:38)
Yeah ⁓

Kate Young (22:52)
How does a teacher talk to the director? So I got Danita to help us a little bit with some language that a director might be able to take to their teachers. Carrie, if we have a teacher who happens to be listening, what is something or a way that maybe they can bring something, or do they need to, bring something to directors or to owners because they want to bring more play, more openness to their program?

Carrie Casey (23:18)
I mean,

I think knowing the educational philosophy of your school and figuring out how can you blend more child directed play and learning into that educational philosophy, because you can do it in every educational philosophy. Whether it's one that is very child centric, like Waldorf, or sorry, not Waldorf, Montessori or Reggio Emilia.

Those are very child focused and you're supposed to follow the child's lead. But then you've got Waldorf on the other side, which is all about the adult doing everything. And like to the point where children don't necessarily clean up their own messes, there's the idea that there's a fairy that comes in and cleans the room while you're on the playground. ⁓

Denita Dinger (24:08)
Well, I would like

that fairy to come to my house.

Kate Young (24:10)
You too? Yeah.

Carrie Casey (24:11)
Yeah, but anyway, so it doesn't matter how structured your program is, there are ways to allow the children to drive the train. If you have to have themes because that is the way your center is structured, then talk to the, well, not the infants.

But talk to the toddlers, the threes, the fours, the fives, the school-agers the week before and say, okay, we're gonna be doing, we're gonna be learning about community helpers next week, because that's a pretty common theme, right? What are some things that you want to learn about that you want to explore about community helpers? And then use that to determine what materials you bring in and what resources you bring in so that

you can have more that child directed and still work within the educational philosophy of your program. Having those conversations.

Denita Dinger (25:13)
Or better yet,

I know like Texas for sure, right? Isn't there where are all centers on the same? Isn't there something where they all are doing the same theme every week? Wasn't there something a couple of years ago? What am I getting? So I spoke down by ⁓ Martha's.

Carrie Casey (25:28)
Not really.

Kate Young (25:29)
Yeah

So there might be some.

Carrie Casey (25:34)
So some chains have that

some of the chains that are big down here have that

Denita Dinger (25:38)
Yeah,

and that I can... I swear there was something statewide that was coming, but okay, forget it, scratch that. But anyway...

Kate Young (25:44)
Anything that's with

anything that's with TEA. So if they if TEA is involved in that preschool So in other words the Texas Education Agency There are some at this time of the year you have to do this and so that does get pretty Formulaic as far as if you walked into any elementary school Kindergarten is going to be doing pretty much the same thing and it is possible I will say that I don't know for sure it is possible that that has carried itself into some of the public

Denita Dinger (25:58)
Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay, that's what I'm thinking

of. So Carrie, everything you're saying is so spot on, but I want to take it just one step further that instead of the adult saying, next week we're going to learn about community helpers, what if the adult is observing and noticing what the children are really interested in? Right.

Carrie Casey (26:32)
Yeah, and that would be ideal, but in some programs,

the educator is told by corporate or whatever that this is what the theme is gonna be for next week. And so if you're in a program that has that, you can still take a cue from the kids, even if you have to do this unit this week instead of wait until the kids are asking about community helpers. And, you know, as an owner,

Denita Dinger (26:44)
it hurts me to my core.

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Carrie Casey (27:02)
My thing was these are a couple of topics you should probably do in the summer. These are a couple you should probably do in the fall, et cetera, and do them when it seems right for those kids. But other people, that makes them super, super anxious. And they're like, no, no. First week of September, we will be doing apples. And they are super anxious if they cannot do apples the first week in September.

Denita Dinger (27:23)
Yeah

And that's this.

Carrie Casey (27:29)
And if that's

making you anxious, I'm not telling you you can't do apples, but I am saying be involved in conversation with the kids because some of them have only ever had golden delicious, which we know are neither golden and frequently not always delicious. And the red delicious are red, but less delicious than the golden delicious, right? And so, so,

Denita Dinger (27:50)
Thanks.

Yes, yes, and where is Honey Christ in the whole conversation? Those are

the best.

Carrie Casey (27:58)
They don't

know the joy of a Braeburn apple and so they think they don't like apples. They just don't like the cruddy apples they've had access to. And so.

Denita Dinger (28:08)
Right?

Kate Young (28:08)
Or they've

only ever had the apple slices that taste like citric acid, or they've only had apple sauce. But they don't even know that an apple, like they see the picture of an apple, but they've probably, they may not have ever actually seen one in a store. All right, well, we have had, and we could absolutely carry this conversation for another 30, 40 minutes, and then come back and still have more to talk about.

Denita Dinger (28:14)
Yes, the bag, yeah.

Yes.

Kate Young (28:32)
Danita does have a class coming up in January. So if you are even a little bit interested in knowing more Strongly encourage you to jump on Danita's class in January in the show notes. We've got a freebie and So we are excited that she's got a freebie that she's going to share with our listeners. And so if you have Somehow stumbled across the podcast and you didn't know we have a newsletter

Make sure you come to childcareconversations.com. Jump on the newsletter because the newsletter is what has the link to the freebie.

Denita Dinger (29:10)
And the

freebie is the top five play opportunities every child needs. And so it's a good one, guys. It's a banger. It's gonna help you a lot with those first steps. Yeah, yep.

Kate Young (29:21)
I love that.

Carrie Casey (29:23)
and you can share

it with the parents. gonna, it's very, very helpful. So I think we've got to wrap it up here or else we're gonna keep these people in their part, in their driveway or parking lots and they're gonna get late to work. So if you guys learned something from this show, please share it with someone else who needs to know and make sure you have subscribed or followed whatever it's called on your podcast player of choice. Remember, if you want to see our smiling faces, we're...

Denita Dinger (29:35)
Yes.

Carrie Casey (29:53)
on YouTube. If you only want to hear our crazy voices, we're available on all your podcast players of choice and we will see you in a few days.